The formula for how auto upholstery shops price their convertible tops has always been simple: (Hours the Job Takes x Hourly Labor Rate) + MSRP = Price Quote.
However, in recent years a disturbing trend has thrown a wrench into our formula and aggravated trim shops across the county. Convertible tops are being sold online to retail customers at costs equal to wholesale.
Convertible-top supplier Electron Top Manufacturing Co recently published a memo titled “We do not sell direct” that highlights the problem:
Our industry had maintained a unity amongst one another (manufacturers, distributors and upholstery shops) that provided an opportunity for all of us to flourish and be successful. That “Unity” has slowly been broken by some whom are selling outside our industry and have ventured into direct sales. Most likely being driven by a financial catalyst other than survival and preservation of our “Auto Trim Industry” and singularly the “Bottom Line”.
Auto trim shops are entitled to every penny of their markup on materials. But with customers bringing in tops that they purchased on Ebay and inquiring about installation costs only, we lose that income.
To make up the difference, some trim shops have increased labor rates for customers who supply their own tops. But that doesn’t always help, as many of these tops are of cheap quality and require a lot more time to install properly – making it difficult to give accurate price quotes.
I commend Electron Top on their vow never to sell directly to consumers and hope that other manufacturers will follow suit. My shop has been installing Electron convertible tops for decades without any problems. Their product is first rate, their staff is knowledgeable and their customer service is second to none.
We want to hear from you: Have you experienced this problem? If so, what did you do about it? What can we do, as an industry and community of auto trim professionals, to combat this growing trend? Tell us in the comments section below.
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It’s unfortunate, but these suppliers that are selling directly to our customers have no incentive to stop.
Only we – as a community of trimmers – can do something about it.
I think we have three options:
1. Boycott suppliers that sell directly to customers
2. Refuse to install tops that customers buy themselves
3. Charge more than our regular prices to install these tops
However, none of these options will work unless we all commit to do them together.
What does everyone else think?
I WILL USE CONVERTIBLE TOPS THAT CUSTOMERS BUY ON THERE OWN.BUT I DO CHARGE MORE LABOR,ANOTHER THING I DO IS HAVE THE CUSTOMER SIGN A FORM STATING THAT IM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FIT OF THE TOP,WRINKLES,SAGS ETC.I ONLY GUARANTEE MY LABOR,SO THEY ARE VERY CLEAR THAT THE TOP THEY BOUGHT MIGHT NOT FIT PROPERLY.
The Warranty Element
I discourage my potential customers from buying their own by discussing the warranty factor with them. I don’t offer a labor warranty if they use their own top. I have never lost a job because of this.
You have to give them a good clear explanation of the pros and cons, yet at the same time sell your skills; on many occasions you need the job and don’t want to lose a sale.
I also give them a price comparison with my top and labor versus their top and my labor. My top and labor is 99.9% of the time more cost effective especially when the warranty is included.
Great points Sonny. Customer’s are rational and can recognize a good value when they see one. We just need to spell it out sometimes.
I just feel sorry for the ones who already bought their inferior tops online. Hopefully they kept the receipt.
The “check in” form all customers complete has a box titled “CSM” (Customer Supplied Material). If a customer brings in a top, a set of pre-made seat covers (more or an issue than tops), or even flat stock material they are wanting used that was not purchased through PRO Stitch, then they are charged $65/hr rather than our normal $52/hr. In addition, there are no breaks during the project. Instead of my usual “this SHOULD take x number of hours” on a normal project, I instead clock every minute spent on the project.
The worst situation regarding tops is with Jeep replacements. My regular material supplier’s wholesale cost to me is more than what customers can find the same brand of top in a particular consumer catalog. I called the brand in question and was told that the tops are the very same in quality and workmanship (no seconds or rejects) and the only reason for the cheaper price was the ability to bulk sell. If a customer asks me to purchase a Jeep top, I charge 1 1/2 hour for “handling” to place the order. I then charge an additional couple hours for installation, and usually point out any flaws in their seats or interior upholstery to create a repeat customer and recoup my losses.
ANY materials supplied by the customer come with the caveat that there is NO guarantee on them. I will not stand behind the fit or performance of their supplied product. If it fits poorly, they have the choice of having me purchase a suitable replacement or living with a shoddy top. If the top rips (it happened with a supplied top that had been stored in the customer’s trunk for TEN YEARS), then I call them and just point blank let them know “your car has no top on it, the new one is ripped. Are you coming to get it, or am I buying one this time?” If seat covers or other products malfunction, I charge the inflated labor rate to repair or correct the problem so they are useable.
In many instances, when a customer talks with the shop prior to ordering their own product, they can be dissuaded from going the “cheap” route, once they are made aware of all the pitfalls this can include. As for the other situations, ya gotta suck it up an work to make them a repeat customer to make money on them at a later date.
Mike Steves and Stitcher Guy – you both bring up really good points about charging more and not guaranteeing anything but the labor.
Stitcher Guy, you mentioned that you don’t reject the work because you want to establish good relations with the customers – so that they come back. When they come back – say for seat covers – do you find that they bring their own materials again? Or do they order from you the next time?
Below are more comments made about this article on a different upholstery forum:
SHHR: I have friends who run other types of shops who have signs posted that state something to the effect of what they charge per hour. Some have two charges posted; one for all work and supplies they provide and another for if the customer brings in their own parts. I look at it from the standpoint that being a small one man shop, I really don’t have time to set there and explain to a customer why I have two rates. I do this; If a customer comes in with a top or any other material already purchased, I look it over and will quote labor price that I add time to to cover money lost from not supplying the material myself. I also make it well known that I will do a very high quality job in a labor standpoint, but will not guarantee any material whatsoever. If it looks to be a poor quality material I simply turn it away and let them know that it’s inferior, usually showing them a comparable high quality material so they can see the difference. Some understand and some want to argue. If they start complaining about me not wanting to do the job, I always fall back on the same argument that you wouldn’t walk into a restaurant with a bag of groceries and say I’ll pay you only $5 to cook these for me. – Kyle
bobbin: The policy in the shop where I work is that any customer supplied materials are in no way guaranteed. If there is insufficient fabric to effect a proper pattern match… tough! if there is a flaw in the goods and it cannot be avoided with ease… tough! We will call and alert them that that is the case, and they are charged for the time required to figure it all out, at the hourly shop rate. I am always surprised that so many customers have a sense of entitlement with respect to the time spent figuring out the finer detailst they never bothered to consider in the first place!
I am “on the fence” about offering lines of fabric in my own workroom (my experience is that the line is never the “right” one), and so I deal with COM all the time. I give a fabric estimate based on plain goods and specify that any reputable dealer with know how to translate plain yardage into the proper amount when a repeat is taken into consideration. I will happily provide the customer with another yardage estimate if I am provided with the requisite repeats. (and yes, I keep track of the time required and add it to final bill).
Stock and time, baby!
DB: Today with the internet and the willingness of the venfors to sell direct, I don’t fight it. Adjust the labor rates to cover all expenses and go with it.
Customers when realizing they are assuming more responsibility in a project will get cold feet and just pay me to do the complete job, labor and materials.
Free estimates in the home are a thing of the past.
So is free pickup and delivery.
It can be provided but the cost of doing that has to be extra.
Some even like it that way, they have trucks and know where to buy supplies, therefore handling the transaction that way is no big deal to them.
It all requires flesibility some times. – Doyle
Brilliant article! Just in the past 3 weeks, we’ve had three customers come in with their own tops. They were:
69 Mustang–KEE Top
65 Galaxy– KEE Top
68 Impala–KEE Top
The main problem with each of the 3 we worked on, KEE! Customers are buying their tops online because they are cheaper. As I explain to them before we start, your cutting cost that will effect you on the installation end of the restoration. We like to refer to it as, turning dog pee into lemonade.
We stick to our normal hourly rate whether we use our product or theirs. We inform them in the beginning that all warranty related issues involving the top will be their battle to fight. I’m able to deter most people who call on the phone before hand with the “I can get the top online for X price, what’s your labor?” question. If they do decide to proceed with their provided top (swim at their own risk), I immediately add $100 to my book time labor and also inform them that it could increase.
So far in the past weeks, the 68 Impala customer incurred $300 of additional labor due to having to adjust the KEE top at the quarters FIVE TIMES. This problem is very common with their tops. The 69 Mustang incurred $200 of additional labor and at the end of the day, his top started to de-laminated at the left rear quarter ruining the top.
The 65 Galaxy is in progress. Who knows what will become of it.
I hope this gives some of you some ammo going forward!
Thanks for the info Alabama Auto Top. It’s funny you should mention KEE, because I’ve had customers bring their tops to my shop and just like you said I had to redo the rear quarters several times. I think it has to do with those little punched holes which are “supposed” to correspond with the tack bar, yet rarely ever do. Nothing is more frustrating than unnecessary added labor.
Like you, I charge for the extra hours it takes to install but it seems as though the customers are convinced that the top they bought is perfect and if there is any trouble in the installation that it’s our fault.
I guess all we can do is warn them before we do the job and get it in writing.
alwayes charge more for CO tops and material no WARENTY . all auto parts stores wilnot warenty labor . unless a qualified shop buyes it and installs it.
when a customer said i can git it cheaper i just say go for it
I agree. I just tell them “You get what you paid for.”
We charge our standard retail labor rate of $95 per hour and charge the number of hours in our supplier catalogs. We don’t get much of this work, I think my competition is low balling us on this type of work and that’s the way it goes. Most customers seem to go with our product if we can talk to them before they make the purchase. Thanks to Naseem for setting up this site!!
Thanks for joining The Hog Ring Jim. Like you, I like to talk to the customers before they buy their own top. Customers are a little weary of ordering tops online and rightfully so because they don’t know the quality only the price. When I tell them I’ve been ordering tops from the same reputable suppliers for decades, they usually choose my tops too.
What a great article! We have dealt with two of these in the last month. One for a 89 Saab and one for an 83 Mustang. Both tops took way longer to install than hours in the book. And both tops were junk! Purchased on line some where. Customers have no idea all the parts they need either. Ended up ordering cables and pads for these cars.The tops didn’t come with the rear bow trim pieces either. Gonna rethink install prices. Thanks for the comments on ways to solve this problem. KUDOS to Electron!
Look for our follow up article to be published in the near future.
Over the years, I ended up using two auto top manufacturers, Electron Top and Robbins Auto Top. Both, were excellent fitting and had quality materials in their products. If a customer came in with their own top, I would charge a flat eight hours for most installs, sometimes ten to twelve hrs, depending on the car. Any extra labor to repair or replace tack strips, damaged or misaligned bows etc., was extra. The customer was responsible for any warranty on his top materials. If the top had to be removed for warranty, I charged for that. It was always explained, that when I sold and installed the top, any defects in the material, and or my work, was my responsibility.
In forty six years in the trim business, I can’t remember more than a couple of COM installs.
For me I will only install Electron, EZ-On, and robbins. I will not install a top provided by the customer. Usually those tops are inferior quality for around the same price that I would sell them a top. They always think they will save $ by getting their own top. The problem is that they don’t save much at all, and they are in a way taking $ out of my pocket. I always explain the price & quality difference to them, and point out that their $ stays in the community when they buy from me.
It is a shame that a top manufacturer sells on the internet! I usually charge 20 % more for labor on a customer who supplies there own. Im even a prefered installer for Robbins ( for whatever that is worth)…I dont even know how I feel about that……There just throwing us under the bus!…After all the years I have purchased there tops….I think its time to give electron a call
i work for a car audio shop and the number of customers now how bring in theese inferior offshore pieces drives us crazy. to the point we no longer accept customer supplied .. ” well ill do it myself” is generally the answer i get ,,,,,, its never long before its back for me to remove the junk and repair there failings.